Episode Description

Laura Schneider, a therapist who is openly in recovery herself, talks with Kira about the cycle between trauma and substance use disorder. When trauma goes untreated, substances often become a way to numb the symptoms, and that pressure keeps building until something gives.

Laura shares how she approaches treatment when both are present, why boredom is one of the biggest relapse triggers, and how new goals and routines can rebuild confidence. With the holidays coming up, she also offers tips for anyone in recovery, or anyone supporting a family member who is struggling.

Summary

Laura Schneider explores the interconnected pathways of trauma and addiction recovery, discussing how understanding the trauma-addiction connection leads to more compassionate and effective healing strategies.

Episode Highlights

Episode Transcript

00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:02,010
Laura Schneider: But you're not
actually healing from anything.

00:00:02,010 --> 00:00:03,930
So these things are going to
keep coming up. And you're going

00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:08,640
to keep using substances more
and more to kind of treat the

00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:12,330
mental health symptoms that come
with trauma. And then, as the

00:00:12,330 --> 00:00:15,210
addiction is getting worse,
you're probably going to use

00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:18,180
more and then you're going to
just be numbing things until the

00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:21,300
point it kind of explodes.
Eventually, it's like a pressure

00:00:21,300 --> 00:00:23,670
cooker, the more pressure you
put eventually it's going to,

00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:25,890
it's all going to come
collapsing down.

00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:29,790
Kira Yakubov: Welcome back to
Heal Your Roots Podcast. In

00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:32,820
today's episode, we have Laurie
Schneider, discussing the

00:00:32,820 --> 00:00:36,030
cyclical nature between trauma
and substance use disorder.

00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,510
Laura shares great insight and
tips on how to work through this

00:00:39,510 --> 00:00:43,530
holiday season. If you or a
family member, you know, may be

00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:45,810
struggling with substance use
disorder, you're going to want

00:00:45,810 --> 00:00:49,950
to tune in. Thanks so much. So
I'm so excited for today's

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episode. Laura, thank you so
much for joining us today.

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We can kind of jump right in,
can you share a little bit about

00:00:59,310 --> 00:01:02,190
kind of how you got into the
field and into the world of

00:01:02,190 --> 00:01:05,370
therapy? Sure. Thank you for
having me. First of all, I'm

00:01:05,370 --> 00:01:10,410
very excited to be here. I got
into what I do now in a very

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long, roundabout way. But I'm
very glad I got here.

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Laura Schneider: I started when
I went to school, I thought

00:01:18,570 --> 00:01:22,050
about what do I want to do with
my life. So I started taking

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classes for nursing. And part of
that is you take prerequisites,

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and I started taking psychology
classes. And something about

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learning about how the mind
works and how people are was so

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fascinating to me that I changed
my major. I studied psychology.

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And after I got my bachelor's
degree, then came another period

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of okay, well, what do I want to
do with this degree? How do I

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want to use this? So I started
working with caseworkers I was a

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case aide. And in that work, I
decided I loved working with

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people, I loved the challenges
that they had and trying to help

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them as much as I could. So I
learned about a master's in

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social work. And I really liked
that degree, because it opened a

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lot of doors, it was very
personal, you could really work

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with a lot of different
populations, in different

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settings, doing different
things. And that really

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intrigued me. So while I was
getting that degree, I started

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really, really loving the
classes where we talked about

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the therapeutic interventions
and how to be a therapist. So

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that was always my long term
goal.

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During that time, however, I got
very into drug addiction, it

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started very innocently and
eventually spiraled pretty out

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of control. So my career path
kind of took a backseat for a

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bit. Once I got help, I went to
a place where a lot of the

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therapists were openly in
recovery. And I remember sitting

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there thinking, Oh my God, I
want to do the same thing. I

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have this degree already, I have
this real world experience. I

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know what this is like. And so
that became my new long term

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goal. And then once I started
doing that kind of work, working

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with alcohol, alcoholics and
addicts, and providing therapy

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for them, I realized that this
was always what I was meant to

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do. It was the purpose that I
was given, and I feel so

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fulfilled. It's a very
challenging job. But it's one

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that I find so rewarding. I
absolutely love it. Even on the

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really hard days where so many
things are going wrong, I still

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very much know that this was my
calling and why I was put here.

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Kira Yakubov: Thank you for
sharing that. I appreciate that.

00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,540
I know, it's not easy for us to
always kind of share vulnerable

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moments of our own personal
life, especially as a therapist.

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And I think that a lot of our
own personal experiences,

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whether it's within our own life
or family or things that we've

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gone through kind of informed
why we choose particular

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specialties, or who we want to
work with. And I'm I mean, I'm

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curious of how that, I'm sure
really helps your clients feel

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like they can relate to you
knowing that that's something

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that you've gone through as
well. And here to help them move

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through it. I

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Laura Schneider: think it does.
A lot of a lot of the clients I

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work with do appreciate the
honesty, I don't share a lot of

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details about it. But I think
just knowing sure that I come

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from a similar background really
does help.

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I know for myself, it helped,
because I did try treatment a

00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:28,050
couple of times before my last
attempt. And I didn't know for

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sure if any of the the
therapists were in recovery or

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not. And I know in the field of
social work, it really shouldn't

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matter, right? We were taught
not to share too much about

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ourselves because it's not about
us. It's about the people we

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work with. I just feel that this
is a very unique population. And

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I think that having that degree
of familiarity and understanding

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between us really helps the
therapeutic relationship.

00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:09,120
I value their opinion and
they're also in recovery. So

00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,600
they got it there. Maybe I can
get it to, or like, they're not

00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,520
just telling me something that
they read in a textbook, they're

00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,470
kind of giving me real advice.
And I find that it really helps,

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especially

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in our, you know, our people are
very resistant to change at the

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beginning. So I think having
having good role models helps.

00:05:30,990 --> 00:05:31,770
Absolutely.

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Kira Yakubov: And so what kind
of different settings have you

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worked in, in terms of with
clients like inpatient or

00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:39,690
outpatient, what that's been
like for you and your

00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:40,500
experience?

00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:43,320
Laura Schneider: For substance
use disorder, I've worked in

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outpatient, I also have a
background in mental health

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therapy, just strictly mental
health where I did outpatient

00:05:50,580 --> 00:05:56,610
services as well. I've worked in
a group home for developmentally

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disabled children, I've worked
with CPS not, you know, going to

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family court. So I've been in a
lot of different outpatient

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settings. And so when you are at
your current placement right

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now, at Valley springs recovery,
is that an outpatient facility,

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that's an outpatient, okay. And
so the clients you're seeing,

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are they actively in addiction,
or they're through the recovery

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process.

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We're getting them in the early
stages. So some people come in,

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and it's their first time and
it's the early days, and they

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don't know what to expect. We
have some people who this is not

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not their first rodeo. So they,
they kind of have an idea of how

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recovery kind of works. So you
know, they come in with some

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background in trying to get
help, I find we have people that

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come in, in the very beginnings
of recovery. So they've never

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been to treatment before, they
don't really know what to

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expect. We have some people that
this is not the first go around.

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So they they do have some
background in the treatment

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process. Some people that come
for, you know, to make their

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families happy, some people that
really want it for themselves.

00:07:01,469 --> 00:07:04,799
And then during that process,
some people, you know, have

00:07:04,799 --> 00:07:09,119
slips or relapses, a good
portion of them do remain in

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treatment, or try to get re
engaged and get back on track,

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for the most part, which is a
great thing. Very rarely do they

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kind of just disappear and never
come back. But yeah, those were

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probably most of the people we
see.

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Kira Yakubov: Well, that's
great, they don't disappear. The

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museum is committed to treatment
to some degree, even if they're

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not ready at that particular
stage. But you know, because I

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know there's different seasons
of this process. So knowing that

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the place you're at Valley
springs recovery, it sounds

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like, depending on where you're
at, in your journey, this is a

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good spot for them to come to
get treatment.

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Laura Schneider: I agree. And I
think the main feedback I hear

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from a lot of the clients is
that they feel cared for. They

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feel like we actually do care
about them and want them to do

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well. That's it, that's really
the best thing to hear. I want

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people to feel heard and seen
and valued.

00:08:05,970 --> 00:08:10,530
Kira Yakubov: Absolutely. And so
I know that you specialize in

00:08:10,530 --> 00:08:14,280
addiction, treatment and
substance use, I know that you

00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,980
also work with trauma. And I
know that there's a really large

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overlap and kind of like this
cyclical relationship between

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trauma or PTSD and substance use
disorder. Can you speak a little

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bit more on that, or what you've
seen in your experience or your

00:08:27,450 --> 00:08:28,410
knowledge around that?

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Laura Schneider: Yeah, um, we
actually talked about this

00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,270
yesterday, in group. A lot of
the people that I see I love

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getting the trauma people if I
know they have trauma, I do try

00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,960
to see them because that is one
of my passions is working with

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trauma and PTSD. One of the
things that we learned in the

00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:51,450
process is some people will come
in with trauma before their

00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:56,610
addiction starts. And then some
people will have trauma kind of

00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,230
in adulthood. But one of the
things we try to put together

00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:04,440
like the pieces of okay, what
what is this trauma and how,

00:09:04,470 --> 00:09:08,010
what is the impact it's having
on your life? Is it a story

00:09:08,010 --> 00:09:14,040
where the pain is so much that
you did different things to cope

00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,690
with it, in a way numb it or try
to push it aside and pretend

00:09:18,690 --> 00:09:21,540
like it's not there, eventually,
drugs and alcohol become a great

00:09:21,540 --> 00:09:23,940
way to do that, because it kind
of turns your mind off a little

00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:26,610
bit. But you're not actually
healing from anything. So these

00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:28,620
things are going to keep coming
up. And you're going to keep

00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:33,240
using substances more and more
to kind of treat the mental

00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,600
health symptoms that come with
trauma. And then as the

00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,450
addiction is getting worse,
you're probably going to use

00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:42,450
more and then you're going to
just be numbing things until the

00:09:42,450 --> 00:09:45,540
point it kind of explodes.
Eventually. It's like a pressure

00:09:45,540 --> 00:09:47,940
cooker, the more pressure you
put eventually it's going to

00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:50,130
it's all gonna come collapsing
down.

00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,910
Kira Yakubov: Yeah, and it's
interesting because it's, you're

00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:55,710
saying that sometimes people
come in with trauma and they

00:09:55,710 --> 00:09:58,740
haven't even really started
using substances or it can be

00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:00,930
vice versa, right like they need
have already started using

00:10:00,930 --> 00:10:04,770
substances for whatever reason,
and maybe there's you know, they

00:10:04,770 --> 00:10:07,020
had an accident or something
else that's been going on in

00:10:07,020 --> 00:10:10,530
their life. And then through
that process, they may find

00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:15,060
themselves in kind of traumatic
or dangerous situations that

00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:17,820
exacerbates that and those
symptoms. And it kind of just

00:10:17,820 --> 00:10:19,830
goes back and forth. Yeah,

00:10:19,890 --> 00:10:22,590
Laura Schneider: it's a snowball
effect. One of the young men was

00:10:22,590 --> 00:10:27,900
talking yesterday about how he,
I think it's like 10 years or so

00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:30,570
he has a process, this really
traumatic thing that happened,

00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:33,450
where he found a friend that
passed away. And it was an after

00:10:33,450 --> 00:10:36,840
a night of them partying. So he
has been carrying around for 10

00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,550
years. Who knows, but he hasn't
even started unpacking it, like

00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:45,600
the guilt, the shame, the
sadness, the anger, there's all

00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,140
these things that he's just been
numbing, and the stuff is still

00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:52,080
going to be there underneath.
But we're not actually healing

00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:53,490
and getting better.

00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,090
Kira Yakubov: Yeah, wow. And I
can imagine a lot of people who

00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:00,210
have had childhood trauma,
right, like years and years or

00:11:00,210 --> 00:11:04,170
decades of not really wanting to
go there or think about that.

00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:07,680
And numbing, self medicating,
right. I mean, it is a coping

00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,550
mechanism. It's maladaptive.
It's not the best one. But it's,

00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:14,790
you know, something that they
found to help them move through

00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:17,880
life to not have to deal with
those, whether it's painful

00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,180
memories or like the
dysregulation in their body.

00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,470
Yeah, that's a lot. And it's
heavy work for you to be in

00:11:25,470 --> 00:11:29,040
every day as well. So I commend
you for being in that specialty

00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,050
and helping people in that
circumstance.

00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:35,760
Laura Schneider: Thank you. I, I
think also, trying to identify

00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,980
healthy coping skills can be a
challenge, too, because

00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:41,820
sometimes people don't even know
really who they are. And they

00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:44,880
depending on what the trauma is,
I really love working,

00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,280
especially not that I don't like
working with men. But I like

00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,360
working with women who have
trauma. Because a lot of times

00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,050
what I hear from them is this
great sense of not really know

00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:58,500
who they are, and having this
narrative in their head, that

00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:02,550
doesn't really come from them.
That that it's very, very low

00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:07,140
self esteem and no confidence
and very, very segregating to

00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:10,200
themselves and trying to work on
building up that piece of self

00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,680
love and competence and kind of
rewriting the narrative that

00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:16,830
they've put into that they've
had running in their heads for

00:12:16,830 --> 00:12:17,940
years. Yeah.

00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:21,210
Kira Yakubov: And so how do you
kind of approach that if

00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:24,780
someone's coming in with
addiction or substance use? And

00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:28,560
they have a history of trauma?
Like do you tackle both at the

00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:31,260
same time? Do you kind of take
time to separate between the

00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:33,750
two? What's kind of like the
course of action? Obviously,

00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:36,330
it's different for every person,
but like, generally, your

00:12:36,330 --> 00:12:37,230
approach to that.

00:12:38,430 --> 00:12:40,770
Laura Schneider: i It's kind of
like what you said, it depends

00:12:40,770 --> 00:12:44,700
on what symptoms are presenting
who the person is what really

00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:48,720
needs to be tackled. The hope is
that, by the time I see them,

00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,900
they're relatively stable. They
haven't had substances in their

00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:55,620
system for a while. So they're
pretty as close to baseline as I

00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:59,490
can get them. If they're going
to be there for a short amount

00:12:59,490 --> 00:13:03,990
of time. We I do. I don't go
deep diving into the trauma, but

00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:06,180
we kind of talk a little bit
about maybe putting the pieces

00:13:06,180 --> 00:13:09,960
together of okay, we have this
traumatic experience you had,

00:13:10,020 --> 00:13:13,560
how does that paint your view of
the world? How does that? How is

00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,860
that kind of showing you how to
react to people? How can we work

00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:20,790
on that? So it's a more healthy
way? If you're someone that gets

00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:23,940
like, do you know, your trauma
triggers? Do you know when

00:13:23,940 --> 00:13:27,390
you're going to be more
irritable, more susceptible to

00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:30,990
like panicking, depending on
what you have? And we kind of

00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:35,460
kind of work on? How do we
manage the symptoms, if they're

00:13:35,460 --> 00:13:38,250
going to be there a little bit
longer, and I know, it would be

00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:42,840
safe to do so we do try to dive
deeper and to kind of talk about

00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,100
the trauma more deeply and
really process that over time.

00:13:48,510 --> 00:13:51,540
It really depends if someone's
coming for maybe a month, I'm

00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:56,430
not going to deep dive into a
lot of heavy stuff. But I will

00:13:56,430 --> 00:14:00,360
try to set them up for like a
longer term plan. Luckily, most

00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,570
of the people I do work with
stay for a good amount of time.

00:14:03,570 --> 00:14:06,420
So we're able to do both. Okay,

00:14:06,450 --> 00:14:08,190
Kira Yakubov: so that's great.
I'm glad that you mentioned that

00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:11,130
if they're not there for a long
time. You're not just going like

00:14:11,130 --> 00:14:16,740
straight to the terrible. Yeah,
like the worst thing that ever

00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:19,770
happened, okay, in a couple of
weeks, we're ending. So see you

00:14:19,770 --> 00:14:22,410
later, I just opened up this
room for you. That's like

00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,470
bleeding out, which is the
reason that you've been numbing

00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:29,820
or avoiding and now you have
nothing to help cope with it or

00:14:30,060 --> 00:14:34,110
move through that. So more about
like symptom reduction, and

00:14:34,290 --> 00:14:36,330
sounds like a lot of self
awareness, right, like making

00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:39,570
sure they can recognize when
they're experiencing these

00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:42,150
symptoms as well. Yeah.

00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:45,660
Laura Schneider: Because that's
also the main takeaway I get

00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:47,760
from a lot of when I'm listening
to what people are talking

00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,040
about. It it's kind of awesome
to watch people discover their

00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:58,380
own. The ways that they react to
things and how they don't they

00:14:58,380 --> 00:15:00,810
didn't realize in that moment, I
didn't really I said something

00:15:00,810 --> 00:15:04,650
like, that is why I feel this
way, which makes me behave this

00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:08,100
way. And it's it's really
amazing to watch people put

00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:11,850
those pieces together for
themselves, and then hopefully

00:15:11,850 --> 00:15:14,190
find better ways to cope with
things.

00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:16,140
Kira Yakubov: So I'm sure that's
one of the most rewarding parts,

00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:18,810
right? He's like having all the
pieces, like watching the light

00:15:18,810 --> 00:15:24,390
bulb go off, like, Oh, I get it.
Now, we're recognizing that that

00:15:24,390 --> 00:15:27,780
experience was traumatic,
because I don't necessarily

00:15:27,780 --> 00:15:30,720
specialize in trauma. But you
know, in therapy, a lot of our

00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,410
clients are coming to us with
some level of traumatic

00:15:34,410 --> 00:15:37,620
backgrounds, relationships,
instances that they bring up.

00:15:37,860 --> 00:15:40,770
And sometimes they don't even
recognize that what they went

00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:44,610
through was traumatic, because
it doesn't seem that bad, or

00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:48,090
doesn't seem like a big deal, or
people around them had it worse.

00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,900
So I'm curious what that's like,
if you've had clients who kind

00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:55,680
of minimize or downplay or don't
even recognize that the things

00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,650
they've been through are
traumatic and impacting them

00:15:58,650 --> 00:15:59,130
now.

00:16:00,570 --> 00:16:02,910
Laura Schneider: So I do have,
I'm thinking of one person in

00:16:02,910 --> 00:16:06,150
particular, that told me some
stories. And in my head, it

00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:09,900
sounded very traumatic. They
didn't, it was, you know, very

00:16:10,290 --> 00:16:12,690
adult, they were minimizing it,
or they just didn't experience

00:16:12,690 --> 00:16:16,890
it as traumatic. But it did
sound pretty traumatic. I always

00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,440
included in my notes, and I
always put it down in like my

00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:25,170
trauma history, just in case it
comes up again. And then maybe

00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:29,700
lightly touch on like, trying to
pull similarities. Oh, well, if

00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:34,020
you're, if you're kind of
talking about these feelings of

00:16:34,020 --> 00:16:39,540
underlying self doubt, or
thinking that people don't like

00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:42,600
you, or this, you know, whatever
they're bringing to me, could

00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,170
that relate to the feeling you
might have had experiencing this

00:16:46,170 --> 00:16:49,620
and trying to help them see, I'm
never going to tell someone

00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:52,170
else's story for them. So if
they don't think it's traumatic,

00:16:52,650 --> 00:16:55,800
then I'm not going to tell them
it's trauma. But I you know, I

00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,090
just want to kind of, I always
tell them, this just food for

00:17:00,090 --> 00:17:04,740
thought, give them little,
little things to think about. A

00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:07,290
lot of my homework for people is
just think about it, I just want

00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:08,460
you to think about these things.

00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:14,880
Kira Yakubov: See where the
connection might be? Yeah. And

00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,610
so I know before, when it was
just the two of us talking that

00:17:17,610 --> 00:17:21,360
you mentioned, doing a lot of
like, inner child work? Can you

00:17:21,390 --> 00:17:23,490
share a little bit about that as
well?

00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,000
Laura Schneider: I find inner
child work to be childhood work

00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,200
to be very fascinating. I think
it's, it's a hard one to get

00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:36,720
people on board with sometimes.
Because I get it it sounds kind

00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,230
of like odd. Like you're, you're
parenting your inner child and

00:17:40,530 --> 00:17:45,600
to do that sometimes you I also
Okay, so let me tell us, I love

00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,270
doing art therapy. It's one of
my favorite things to do. But a

00:17:48,270 --> 00:17:52,830
lot of my adult, they're all
adults, but you know, they get a

00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:54,840
little resistance to our
therapy. They're like, why am I

00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,040
coloring? I know I should not.
And like we can talk about heavy

00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,150
stuff again. But this is just to
have fun. And there's a little

00:18:03,150 --> 00:18:07,530
piece of the kid inside that's
just wants to play and have fun.

00:18:07,530 --> 00:18:10,710
And a lot of people might not
have had that might not have had

00:18:10,890 --> 00:18:16,920
the chance to just have fun. And
you get to care for the little

00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,520
version of yourself that maybe
didn't get that care. And he'll

00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:25,650
that I always tell my people
think of so I would say for

00:18:25,650 --> 00:18:28,830
instance you like think a little
Kira Think a little Kira, who

00:18:28,830 --> 00:18:31,770
just wanted to hug and she just
wanted to adult like she never

00:18:31,770 --> 00:18:35,280
got that, like enter the damn
doll. Let's, let's take her

00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,940
outside and touch some grass and
you know, paints or something,

00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,840
you know, care for her. There's
something very healing about

00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,050
being able to care for like this
metaphorical, smaller

00:18:46,049 --> 00:18:48,239
Kira Yakubov: version of
yourself. Well, that and you

00:18:48,239 --> 00:18:51,359
know, it's interesting, because
the work you do is I'm sure

00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,969
really heavy. And you know,
therapy in general can be really

00:18:53,969 --> 00:18:59,669
heavy. And I think that clients
forget that a big part. And even

00:18:59,729 --> 00:19:03,689
sometimes a big part of healing
is experiencing joy. Right?

00:19:03,689 --> 00:19:06,179
Like, it's not just about
talking about these really,

00:19:06,539 --> 00:19:10,049
whether it's traumatic or
serious or vulnerable things.

00:19:10,259 --> 00:19:14,969
Yes, it's that and it's okay,
now how can I make more space in

00:19:14,969 --> 00:19:18,719
my life to feel joy and
happiness and just be present

00:19:18,719 --> 00:19:22,229
and do these activities that
have no function for

00:19:22,229 --> 00:19:26,969
productivity or anything like
that, but just for me, to just

00:19:27,509 --> 00:19:31,619
live and be like, have fun, like
you're saying is just enjoy life

00:19:31,619 --> 00:19:32,369
for a moment?

00:19:32,819 --> 00:19:35,849
Laura Schneider: Yeah, those are
actually the groups that I love

00:19:35,849 --> 00:19:41,849
to do. I almost always want to
do those, obviously. But I think

00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:46,229
first of all, sobriety wouldn't
be no one would keep doing it.

00:19:46,289 --> 00:19:49,079
If there was no fun or joy ever,
right? If it was a drag every

00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:51,509
day for the rest of your life.
Why would anyone ever stay the

00:19:51,509 --> 00:19:54,569
course. So it's kind of showing
everyone Hey, we're still

00:19:54,569 --> 00:19:58,769
allowed to laugh and have fun
and be silly and goof off. And

00:19:58,859 --> 00:20:02,069
there's also by dynamic in the
group where that brings up group

00:20:02,069 --> 00:20:05,609
cohesion if you're all making
jokes and laughing and having a

00:20:05,609 --> 00:20:08,369
fun time together, those are,
those are the memories that I

00:20:08,369 --> 00:20:11,099
remember from my own group
therapy years ago, I remember

00:20:11,099 --> 00:20:13,529
that the fun groups were we were
we made like gingerbread houses

00:20:13,529 --> 00:20:16,229
for Christmas. And we were all
just joking around. And it was

00:20:16,229 --> 00:20:19,229
fun I not that I didn't get
anything out of the heavier

00:20:19,229 --> 00:20:23,309
groups. But the fun groups is
where, you know, I kind of what

00:20:23,309 --> 00:20:25,799
you're saying, I remembered,
there's joy, I'm allowed to have

00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:29,219
joy and I can have joy, without
anything in my body. That

00:20:29,219 --> 00:20:32,129
shouldn't be there. Like, that's
pretty cool. That's pretty nice.

00:20:32,370 --> 00:20:34,770
Kira Yakubov: Yeah. And I think
that's a big part of helping

00:20:34,770 --> 00:20:37,680
with trauma too, right?
Especially since it's so in our

00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,340
body, and our nervous system is
dysregulated. And we're on edge

00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:44,130
and there could be panic, right?
Like, our amygdala was being

00:20:44,130 --> 00:20:48,150
fired all the time. So having
joy is like telling your body,

00:20:48,420 --> 00:20:53,100
hey, I'm safe enough. To not be
vigilant, I'm safe enough to

00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,520
just focus and be present, and
enjoy the company of other

00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,510
people around me and laugh. And
the more space we create for

00:21:00,510 --> 00:21:06,840
that, like, stillness, right, it
also helps our body kind of heal

00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,570
as well outside of the
narrative. And just like

00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,900
internally somatically, as well.
Absolutely.

00:21:12,959 --> 00:21:18,119
Laura Schneider: And I think
it's, it's a win win, because so

00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:20,549
I picked up the guitar when I
got sober, and I was dealing

00:21:20,549 --> 00:21:24,539
with my own mental health stuff.
And I found it to be so

00:21:24,539 --> 00:21:26,579
rewarding. And I'm not saying
everyone's got to pick up a

00:21:26,579 --> 00:21:30,269
guitar, you know how to play
music. But there's something out

00:21:30,269 --> 00:21:34,319
there that you can do that's
really good to, like, help you

00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:38,069
get, like, get these things out
of you. So for music, if I'm

00:21:38,069 --> 00:21:41,009
sad, I like to play sad music,
and I like to write a lot of

00:21:41,009 --> 00:21:44,729
stuff that's going on in, in my
mind, get it out of my head. And

00:21:44,939 --> 00:21:48,359
it's a healing thing, it helps
me process what I need to. And I

00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,329
think there's a lot of different
mechanisms mechanisms to do

00:21:51,329 --> 00:21:53,519
that. That might be a little
outside the box, you know, if

00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:56,159
you're, I tell people play to
your strengths. I know that I

00:21:56,159 --> 00:21:59,639
like art, and I like music. So
I, I tried to just make it that

00:21:59,639 --> 00:22:03,959
if you've always been interested
in knitting, try it and work

00:22:03,959 --> 00:22:06,359
towards it. Because it's fresh,
everything's new and frustrating

00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,139
at first when you don't know how
to do it. But the more you do

00:22:10,139 --> 00:22:12,389
it, the more you learn, the
prouder, you feel more you want

00:22:12,389 --> 00:22:14,819
to do it, and you feel
accomplished. And it's very

00:22:14,819 --> 00:22:18,329
empowering. If you're someone
that likes to to run, make it a

00:22:18,329 --> 00:22:22,199
goal to do like a half marathon
and and take pride in each day,

00:22:22,289 --> 00:22:25,259
trying your best and just
working a little harder to get

00:22:25,259 --> 00:22:28,169
to your goal. And then you're
gonna feel so many good things.

00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:31,890
Kira Yakubov: Sounds like kind
of redirecting your your energy

00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:35,520
and your thoughts on something
healthier, right? Like, that's

00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,350
for you, that brings joy that is
a learning curve, right? It's

00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:43,800
not about being really good at
it. But it's you gain confidence

00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:47,370
throughout that process and
sticking with something so that

00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:49,440
you feel better about yourself.

00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:53,070
Laura Schneider: Yeah, because
in substance use disorder, the

00:22:53,070 --> 00:22:57,120
number one trigger I hear is
boredom. When people don't have

00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,420
things to do, they get bored,
and then they don't, they're

00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:04,080
just like, Whatever, I'm gonna
go, do what I got to do. So I

00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,750
tell people, you're gonna have a
lot of time on your hands now

00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:09,360
that you're not, you know, going
to the liquor store, go to drug

00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,030
dealer worrying about this or
feeling sick, you're gonna have

00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:16,200
a lot more free time. Let's make
some good use out of it and find

00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,890
something that you'd like to do.
So that that that downtime

00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:25,230
doesn't feel boring. I mean, as
humans, we have to a lot of

00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:28,050
people have to learn that it's
okay to just exist, our bodies

00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:30,780
and our minds need to rest. And
it's okay, you don't have to be

00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:35,940
engaged in something all day
every day. But we can't be not

00:23:35,940 --> 00:23:40,230
doing anything all day, every
day, we got to find something to

00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:45,000
do. So that that time feels
fulfilling. And instead of

00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,940
calling it boring time, it's
more like this is my peace. This

00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:48,960
is my peaceful time.

00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:53,790
Kira Yakubov: It's interesting
that boredom is a is a trigger,

00:23:53,790 --> 00:23:56,580
I wouldn't have necessarily
thought about that. But I can

00:23:56,580 --> 00:24:00,060
think about, at least for me,
like I have ADHD and like when

00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:04,440
I'm bored, sometimes it can feel
or is interpreted as me being

00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,890
sad. And so I'm curious if
there's kind of that connection

00:24:07,890 --> 00:24:10,230
to have when you're bored,
there's nothing to do you feel

00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:12,450
like that's you're not being
fulfilled. And so it kind of

00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:16,050
feels like sadness, or if that's
just like, a personal

00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:17,970
experience. And that's not
something that maybe other

00:24:17,970 --> 00:24:21,630
people kind of linked together.
Boredom.

00:24:22,590 --> 00:24:25,050
Laura Schneider: Well, because
what I think of boredom, a lot

00:24:25,050 --> 00:24:27,780
of people also talk about the
feeling of loneliness, too. And

00:24:27,780 --> 00:24:32,790
I think that can feel sad as
well. And this is more of that

00:24:32,790 --> 00:24:36,000
kind of CBT technique is like
what words we're using, right?

00:24:36,030 --> 00:24:38,340
Sometimes we are going to be a
little bored, it's okay to be

00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:42,390
bored. You're not going to
always be fulfilled every single

00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:44,880
second of the day, but it's
about being able to kind of sit

00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,540
in that tolerate it, and then
maybe change how we view it. So

00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:53,400
for me if I'm having that boring
time, or what other people might

00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:57,810
look at as boring I find it very
peaceful. I find it we're also

00:24:57,810 --> 00:25:02,550
breaking this cycle of Chaos. So
a lot of people in addiction and

00:25:02,550 --> 00:25:07,500
in trauma get very used to chaos
and I, we logically know that

00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:10,230
the chaos is not good for us,
we're not happy in that chaos,

00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,170
but it's comfortable. When
you've lived in it for so long,

00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:17,640
you, you, it feels familiar. So
you might keep trying to chase

00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,080
that chaos in some way. So I
think it's about accepting that

00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:24,570
you don't have to live in chaos.
And that's a good thing, you're

00:25:24,570 --> 00:25:28,170
allowed to have peace. And
instead of calling it boredom,

00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,250
let's call it downtime, and the
serenity that you've been

00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:35,040
looking for, because you deserve
to not live in chaos.

00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,170
Kira Yakubov: That's so true.
Whatever is familiar is

00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:39,480
comfortable, even if it's not
something that's healthy, or

00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,480
that we enjoy. It's just we know
what to expect. We know what to

00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,980
do with it. And changes Change
is hard, right? And anytime we

00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,830
change, there's like a grieving
process, even if we're changing

00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:52,560
for the better, still grieving
something that we're leaving

00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,420
behind or losing, that served a
function for some period of time

00:25:57,420 --> 00:25:58,110
for us.

00:25:58,409 --> 00:26:02,549
Laura Schneider: Yeah. In. In
our field, we we say like drugs

00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:04,709
and alcohol. That's not the
problem. That's the solution.

00:26:04,709 --> 00:26:07,319
But what are we solving? What
are? What's the question? Were

00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:10,559
like, what are we using it for?
There's, it's serving a purpose,

00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:12,089
we wouldn't do it if it didn't
serve a purpose.

00:26:12,629 --> 00:26:16,409
Kira Yakubov: So I know that you
coming up in the next year or

00:26:16,409 --> 00:26:21,209
sometime soon wanted to become e
MDR. Certified? For the

00:26:21,209 --> 00:26:23,819
listeners who don't know what
that is, can you share a little

00:26:23,819 --> 00:26:27,539
bit of like, what that approach
is, and what made you want to

00:26:27,569 --> 00:26:29,939
start learning and going into
that direction?

00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:34,230
Laura Schneider: Yeah, sure. Um,
a lot of clients bring it up to

00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:37,890
me. It's something I've read
about or heard about done, like,

00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:41,910
short trainings on. But um, it
stands for eye movement,

00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:47,010
desensitization and
reprocessing. It's basically,

00:26:47,340 --> 00:26:49,110
like the last two words,
desensitization,

00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:55,830
desensitization, and
reprocessing. You know, trauma

00:26:55,860 --> 00:27:00,210
has an impact on how we
experience the world, right? So

00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,650
when the, when we're triggered
in those moments, it causes us

00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:07,890
great distress, right? And that
can impact how we're relating to

00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:12,120
other people, how we're reacting
in situations, and it's not

00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:15,000
always the best, healthiest way,
and it's very uncomfortable for

00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:21,060
us. So this is a technique that
kind of uses eye movements

00:27:21,090 --> 00:27:26,850
similar to REM sleep, I believe,
to minimize some of how we

00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:29,760
experienced that distress when
we recall certain traumatic

00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,600
events, so that they so that
these moments aren't as intense

00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,010
when we experienced them.

00:27:36,569 --> 00:27:37,829
Kira Yakubov: And is that
something that I know you said

00:27:37,829 --> 00:27:40,169
you did a couple of short
trainings on? Is there anything

00:27:40,169 --> 00:27:42,479
that like when you were learning
about you're like, Oh, I

00:27:42,479 --> 00:27:45,839
definitely want to do this or
that made you want to pull

00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:48,209
towards it? Or is it just that
working with trauma, it's kind

00:27:48,209 --> 00:27:50,819
of like the natural next step.

00:27:51,329 --> 00:27:53,519
Laura Schneider: I remember
being very curious about it.

00:27:53,639 --> 00:27:56,339
When I first learned about it,
this was probably 10 years ago,

00:27:57,269 --> 00:28:00,059
a long time ago, when I did it.
At that time, I was working with

00:28:00,269 --> 00:28:04,109
children who survived sex abuse,
so we didn't put it I was still

00:28:04,109 --> 00:28:06,809
in school. So we didn't, you
know, practice it. And I

00:28:06,809 --> 00:28:09,479
remember learning about anything
that's really interesting. But

00:28:09,479 --> 00:28:12,809
again, my own journey got very
sidetracked. So I didn't really,

00:28:13,259 --> 00:28:16,589
you know, go back into it. And
then as I was working in mental

00:28:16,589 --> 00:28:20,189
health and working in addiction,
it's come up a lot, and a lot of

00:28:20,189 --> 00:28:22,859
people who have had an interest
in it. I know, I've been very

00:28:22,859 --> 00:28:27,989
curious about it. myself. So I
thought, you know, if I'm really

00:28:27,989 --> 00:28:31,349
going to try to specialize more
in trauma, I should be really

00:28:31,349 --> 00:28:37,109
informed in a, a pretty
successful and, you know, needed

00:28:37,109 --> 00:28:38,099
technique. Yeah,

00:28:38,099 --> 00:28:39,839
Kira Yakubov: absolutely. And I
know that it's, like pretty

00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:42,119
evidence based, like, there's a
lot of research studies that

00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:47,219
show that it decreases the
symptoms of PTSD or trauma, like

00:28:47,219 --> 00:28:51,809
significantly, and your
experience of it. I mean, I've

00:28:51,809 --> 00:28:55,709
had it done. For me, personally,
I haven't had like the full

00:28:55,949 --> 00:29:00,869
kind, of course of it, but it's
pretty intense. It's you, I

00:29:00,869 --> 00:29:03,929
think you have to like really be
ready for that journey and know

00:29:03,929 --> 00:29:08,369
that like, Okay, I'm committed
to experiencing this and working

00:29:08,369 --> 00:29:11,189
through it. And it's like, not
like it gets worse before it

00:29:11,189 --> 00:29:13,649
gets better, at least from my
experience.

00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,560
Laura Schneider: This is where I
would be particular about who I

00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:19,200
implemented with, though,
because if, again, I'm not going

00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,490
to open Pandora's box, you know,
if someone can only be with me

00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:27,780
for a month, I would kind of be
more open to I don't like to

00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:30,780
have a discussion with people at
the beginning of really how long

00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:33,810
treatment is going to be because
it I don't know that I can't

00:29:33,810 --> 00:29:36,180
answer that for them. I don't
want to give them an arbitrary

00:29:36,180 --> 00:29:38,940
number. And then they get so
focused on the end game that

00:29:38,940 --> 00:29:42,360
they're not present. So I never
really give anything more than

00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,200
like a kind of basic trajectory
of how I think it could go with

00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,670
no promises made. But I think
you know, with depending on who

00:29:50,670 --> 00:29:53,700
I'm working with, I think I
would have to highlight who

00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,370
would benefit from this who
would want to be with me for a

00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:59,310
while because I don't want to,
like you said it can be pretty

00:29:59,310 --> 00:30:02,340
intense and pretty. Eat, it's
gonna feel worse before it gets

00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:05,130
better. So I don't want to just,
you know, let's do EMDR and then

00:30:05,130 --> 00:30:10,050
you're out next week, that's not
a good idea. So I'd have to be

00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:14,280
very careful. But I think I have
enough people that would be with

00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:15,900
me long enough that it would be
beneficial.

00:30:16,350 --> 00:30:19,620
Kira Yakubov: Yeah. And can you
share a little bit if you if you

00:30:19,620 --> 00:30:21,930
know, like, kind of like the
process or what that's like for

00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:24,180
a client who might be interested
in that or struggling with

00:30:24,180 --> 00:30:28,410
trauma to think about what they
could expect in something like

00:30:28,410 --> 00:30:28,770
that,

00:30:29,970 --> 00:30:33,510
Laura Schneider: um, I haven't
performed it myself. So I don't,

00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:36,480
I can't speak to like how it
might look that way. But from

00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,390
what I know, the first session
or two are very, you know,

00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,580
getting like the background
information, getting the

00:30:41,580 --> 00:30:46,920
history, and then you in the
coalition kind of highlight what

00:30:47,340 --> 00:30:50,580
traumatic memories are what what
things you want to what to

00:30:50,580 --> 00:30:53,490
distressing symptoms you're
going to be looking at, and

00:30:53,490 --> 00:30:56,400
you're looking to replace that
with a more positive belief in

00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,440
that place. And then, over the
course of a few sessions, you're

00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,390
going to be really, you got to
be ready to recall these events

00:31:06,390 --> 00:31:09,240
in great detail. And that might
bring up a lot of emotions and

00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,970
feelings, and then they they do
the tapping or the, you know,

00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:16,710
the fingers snapping or the
clapping, to reprocess that in

00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:19,800
your brain. And so you might,
it's gonna bring up a lot of

00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:25,230
stuff. So start small, with
smaller traumas that aren't as

00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:28,980
intense. And you do that for a
few weeks, it really is going to

00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:31,530
depend on the person and what,
what traumatic memories you're

00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:36,540
bringing up, how intense it is.
And then hopefully, you're

00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:40,920
feeling better after, you know,
a couple months. So that, yeah,

00:31:41,490 --> 00:31:45,120
and then you kind of, I think
you'll either pick more stuff to

00:31:45,150 --> 00:31:49,980
even or to I don't think we're
ever fully healed. So I think, I

00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:53,010
think just because life is a
growth and change process, I

00:31:53,010 --> 00:31:56,940
think you can minimize a lot of
things. But I think, like grief,

00:31:56,940 --> 00:32:00,660
never 100% goes away. But if you
learn to manage it and live with

00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:06,330
it, I have anxiety, and I've
just learned to manage and deal

00:32:06,330 --> 00:32:08,400
with it and find what works, you
know, it's never going to go

00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,060
away. 100% Anxiety is normal
thing to happen, right? Grief is

00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:15,810
a normal experience, pain is
normal. But I think we don't, we

00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:18,450
don't want it to impact our
whole lives. We're not we're

00:32:18,450 --> 00:32:20,280
always distressed or always
anxious, we're

00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,590
Kira Yakubov: always this way.
But you should feel it's not

00:32:22,590 --> 00:32:24,570
getting rid of, yeah, we're

00:32:24,570 --> 00:32:27,420
Laura Schneider: not getting rid
of anything. We're just kind of

00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:31,320
learning how to live with these
things and manage them in a way

00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,700
that's effective and helps.

00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:36,479
Kira Yakubov: And for my
understanding, so I don't know

00:32:36,479 --> 00:32:40,499
for sure. But for my
understanding of EMDR. The way

00:32:40,499 --> 00:32:44,819
that it works like in your brain
is pretty fascinating. And

00:32:44,819 --> 00:32:47,609
interesting, especially why they
do like the eye movements or the

00:32:47,609 --> 00:32:51,329
tapping to incorporate with that
is that you know, when a person

00:32:51,329 --> 00:32:54,449
goes through a traumatic
experience, everything in your

00:32:54,449 --> 00:32:58,529
brain and body kind of shuts off
that doesn't need to be there to

00:32:58,529 --> 00:33:02,279
survive in that moment. So like
your language center is off your

00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:05,279
reproductive system, like
everything is kind of off that

00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:09,509
is not immediately necessary. So
like the story and narrative of

00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:12,659
what's happening, versus what's
really going on is like

00:33:12,659 --> 00:33:16,769
disconnected. Right? And so
then, from what I can, from what

00:33:16,769 --> 00:33:21,479
I was reading is that EMDR helps
you make that connection between

00:33:21,479 --> 00:33:24,959
the traumatic experience between
the story, communicate that to

00:33:24,959 --> 00:33:28,799
each other, and desensitize
yourself to create this new

00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:32,579
narrative about the situation or
about what you feel or think

00:33:32,579 --> 00:33:36,539
about it. So that it doesn't
feel the same way in your body

00:33:36,539 --> 00:33:40,379
and in your mind. Which is
pretty powerful. Like, whoa,

00:33:40,769 --> 00:33:41,519
that's crazy.

00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:45,720
Laura Schneider: Yeah, it's it
is fascinating. I wish I was

00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,390
like a neurologist or someone
who could understand anything

00:33:48,420 --> 00:33:51,390
with the brain and understand
how that works. But it's just

00:33:51,420 --> 00:33:55,800
it's powerful. It like you said
it's evidence based so it works

00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,560
for a lot of people. Yeah. And

00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,560
Kira Yakubov: so I know with the
the holidays kind of coming up

00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,430
is this a would you say this is
like a natural trigger for some

00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:07,800
people or some of your clients
just being or whether it's

00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,030
around family or like memories,
or, you know, in the northeast

00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:14,550
of like being in New Jersey, New
York, it's cold and there's

00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:17,820
like, you know, seasonal
depression? Is this a time where

00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,650
you might see more relapse?

00:34:20,670 --> 00:34:22,590
Laura Schneider: Absolutely,
this is what I call the danger

00:34:22,590 --> 00:34:27,810
zone, I feel it's because it's a
lot of holidays back to back to

00:34:27,810 --> 00:34:30,840
back. And that can bring up
either painful memories of not

00:34:30,870 --> 00:34:35,940
having their families around. It
can highlight you know, you have

00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:38,040
to be around family members that
you might not get along with.

00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:44,460
There's usually alcohol at
events around the holidays. So

00:34:44,970 --> 00:34:48,810
like you said, it's cold it's
dreary, it's you know, you're

00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:50,880
gonna be more prone to that. Oh,
it's boring because I can't go

00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,660
outside and it's it's too cold
in the snow and it just you

00:34:54,660 --> 00:34:57,930
know, and seasonal depression
we're now years feeling Saturn

00:34:57,930 --> 00:35:03,270
general it's definite The danger
zone. So we talked about that a

00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:06,300
bit over the last week or so
like what's, what's the safety

00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:09,060
plan? How do we manage through
the holidays in a way where

00:35:09,060 --> 00:35:13,320
we're going to manage our
symptoms? Well, and not go back

00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,510
out and use? Like, what are what
are the tools we're going to put

00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:19,020
in our toolkit for the holidays?
And on the flip side, I do have

00:35:19,020 --> 00:35:20,820
some people that are excited,
because like, Oh, my God, I'm

00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:24,000
sober for the first time that
Thanksgiving, that's, that's

00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:24,660
fun. And they're like,

00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:29,160
Kira Yakubov: Okay. Oh, yeah.
And so for the listeners, are

00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,790
there any kind of I know, it's
very, you know, specific and

00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:35,220
customized to the person. But is
there any like kind of general

00:35:35,220 --> 00:35:38,280
tips that you could give people
during this time that might be

00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,880
in recovery or struggling to
help them move through this

00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:43,470
holiday season or winter?

00:35:44,730 --> 00:35:47,160
Laura Schneider: Absolutely,
there's a few tools that I

00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,900
always recommend for the toolbox
no matter who you are. So that's

00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:54,660
coming up with a plan, right,
and part of the plan are going

00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:58,500
to consist of different steps.
So I always encourage people, if

00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:01,080
you're going to someone's house,
and you know there's going to be

00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:06,750
alcohol, there's no way to avoid
that. Go late, leave early. Take

00:36:06,750 --> 00:36:10,590
care of yourself, have at least
one person, at least one,

00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,960
ideally more, but at least one
person who you can confide in

00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,040
that can help you. So if you get
there, and it's more of a

00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,400
struggle than you thought, have
someone that you can pull aside

00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,490
to talk to have a safe word that
lets them know, we gotta leave

00:36:26,490 --> 00:36:31,080
right now, because we're in high
Red Alert. Have some people on

00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,840
standby on your phone that you
can text or call so you can step

00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,560
out if you're having a craving.
So like, Hey, you got 15 minutes

00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,570
to just talk to me, talk me
through this. And, you know, get

00:36:42,570 --> 00:36:47,760
through that with them. Bring
drinks that you like, if your

00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,580
favorite drink in the whole
world is Diet Coke, bringing 12

00:36:50,610 --> 00:36:54,030
Diet Coke, so you know that you
have your favorite drink, always

00:36:54,030 --> 00:36:56,040
have it and always have it in
your hand. Because people are a

00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,010
lot less likely to offer you a
drink if you're holding a drink

00:36:59,010 --> 00:37:04,410
in your hand. So we tell people
to do that. And just don't be

00:37:04,410 --> 00:37:10,050
like, I get it. We all want to
be polite and kind. You don't

00:37:10,050 --> 00:37:11,640
have to worry about what other
people think if you're

00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,880
struggling, don't just sit there
because you know, oh, Nana said,

00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,040
you know, and I was gonna get
mad if I leave No, like if

00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,830
you're if it's between you
drinking or nana getting

00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:23,850
offended, just, you know, go
take care yourself be safe. Your

00:37:23,850 --> 00:37:27,450
safety is the number one
concern. And don't you don't

00:37:27,450 --> 00:37:31,830
have to tell anybody why you're
not drinking, but have a firm

00:37:31,830 --> 00:37:34,770
no, no is a complete sentence.
And I know that a lot of times

00:37:34,770 --> 00:37:38,490
families don't take that they
want to more information, come

00:37:38,490 --> 00:37:42,090
up with whatever you want to say
if you're on antibiotics, or

00:37:42,090 --> 00:37:44,580
you're on antibiotics, if you're
saying oh, I'm not drinking in

00:37:44,580 --> 00:37:47,310
November, say that. If you want
to tell people you're in

00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:50,760
recovery, even more power to
you. But it's your story. You

00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,600
don't have to tell people unless
you're comfortable. But just

00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,410
have a firm know, don't be like
some people will. Because we

00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:00,630
want to be kind we care about
other people think a lot of my

00:38:00,660 --> 00:38:05,490
people I work with are people
pleasers, as am I we feel like

00:38:05,490 --> 00:38:09,990
we owe people an explanation. Or
something about like, you know,

00:38:10,170 --> 00:38:13,800
we don't we can just say no, I'm
not doing this. And we can we

00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,470
can say that in a way where they
understand that's like the end

00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:19,080
of the conversation. Because
some people will say, Oh, no,

00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,920
not right now. Good. You know,
maybe later, maybe next time I

00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,230
see you, you know, just put a
firm no on it. You're allowed to

00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:28,710
have boundaries, you're allowed
to stand up for something that

00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:30,210
you need, you're allowed to
express that

00:38:30,750 --> 00:38:33,360
Kira Yakubov: sounds like a lot
of being assertive, assertive

00:38:33,390 --> 00:38:36,960
boundaries, having a backup
plan, like thinking ahead a

00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,930
little bit and having support
around you. Yeah.

00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,750
Laura Schneider: And being just
very honest, and especially what

00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:46,200
yourself. Some people think
like, this is a test. We were

00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,590
not this is not a test. These
are not like little you can you

00:38:49,590 --> 00:38:51,510
can get through these moments
and feel proud of them. But you

00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:55,080
shouldn't need to, like go out
and test your sobriety. Right?

00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,320
Like that's why I always say
even if you think you're going

00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:03,060
to be fine, have a safety plan.
I'd rather you have, like 20

00:39:03,060 --> 00:39:06,240
different coping skills and
never need to use any of them

00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:08,760
then be stuck. And now you don't
know what to do.

00:39:08,970 --> 00:39:11,640
Kira Yakubov: Sure. Better safe
than sorry. Always write better

00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,240
to be prepared not have to do
anything. Vice versa. Exactly.

00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:19,860
Yeah. So our this has been very
informative, really great. I

00:39:19,860 --> 00:39:24,630
really appreciate you you coming
on. Is there any way for people

00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:27,060
that are listening that might
want to work with you to get in

00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:29,250
touch with you? Yeah,

00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:33,420
Laura Schneider: um, so I have
an email address. l Schneider at

00:39:33,420 --> 00:39:35,580
Valley spring rc.com.

00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:37,470
Kira Yakubov: Thank you so much
for I really appreciate your

00:39:37,470 --> 00:39:39,540
time and you sharing your
insights with us today.

00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,910
Laura Schneider: They I
appreciate it. Thank you for

00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:42,540
having me.

00:39:42,570 --> 00:39:44,430
Kira Yakubov: This was nice.
Absolutely.

About the Guest

Laura Schneider

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